528 responses to “Jiaoqiu”

1. He got absolutely massacred.
   Imagine going from HSR’s Kazuha to Dehya equivalent of bad. I don’t know who or what to blame for this atrocity. Acheron being way too broken so devs are now scared to make her even more bonkers with too OP support designed for her? ZZZ releasing so kits ending this wonky as a result like they were in Genshin when HSR was releasing? Or DoT reddit who kept forcing the meme that he should be made into bloody DoT unit? The worst part about the latter is that he isn’t even good said DoT unit.
   Some cope saying “oh he can serve as RM replacement, so…” Robin exists… Guinaifen, his now 4* version, also exists and is unironically better at the job of DoT unit than him. Like, who the hell approved this? This man is for nobody at this point. Kafka couldn’t care less to have him even if you were to take said RM out of her team. Even Acheron herself would only want him for stacks… STACKS! You can already gain too many stacks by putting her in DoT team. If you are pulling him just to give said Acheron more stacks, then you may as well just put her with Kafka in the same time and the results will be the same.
   This is just said. They killed the unit that honestly had the most interesting and unique sounding kit. I expected of him to be nerfed in beta due to how over stacked his og kit was, but God damn! This… Nobody thought he will be killed on this level. I can’t think of any other unit that had it this bad. At worst they were allowed to function at their mid level (aka Jade) with barely any upgrades to him, but no other unit got butchered alive as him in beta to the point that not even the bones of his og intended kit remained.

   I saw someone YT say that this would be like if BS entered beta and they pulled a switch on her by removing DoT from her kit, and making her Pela-like debuffer except she is terrible at that job. Which is pretty damn accurate to what happened to him.

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   • Yeah, there are definitely some issues with his kit. But let’s not delude ourselves about “DoT Reddit” causing this or that he’s worth than Kafka for Acheron.

     Sure, Kafka is great for stacks, but she does nothing for her damage besides activating her trace. Jiaoqiu gives more stacks than Kafka, but also more damage amp than Pela. In Dotcheron you’re sacrificing Acheron’s damage for Kafka’s.

     Also, Hoyo isn’t looking to Reddit when they’re building their new characters and deciding their power level. What is more likely is that they really just messed up Nihility unit scaling compared to Harmony units. As such, if they make him Robin/Ruan Mei level, then Pela/SW/debuffer Guinaifen go into the gutter for most players. It’s a tough balancing act that was probably stacked against him from the start as a result.

     He’s still good… but very niche outside of Acheron teams unfortunately.

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   • When HSR released we didn’t get wonky kits we just got nothing
     the tail end of 3.X was just so dead, Baizhu ended up really good but was overlooked and Kirara was good but very simple
     [REDACTED] just suffered from 4* DPS syndrome

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   • I really don’t think he’s that bad at all. People need to stop looking at his damage buff like it’s a basic damage increase. It isn’t, it’s Vulnerability. This damage buff stacks multi not additively with everything else. You get his LC as well and he gives a 59 to 74% pure damage multiplier.

     Imagine if instead his kit was. talent 70% buff, ult 30% buff, LC, 48% buff. I don’t think anyone would be calling him weak then. Yet he’s even better than that. Because his buff stacks multi with other buffs damage bonus.

     Bromya + RM + LCs = 198% damage amp skills only. If the DPS alr has 100% damage amp without buffers these two together won’t even double that DPS’s damage.

     Bronua + Jiaoqiu + LCs = 227.5% damage amp skills only. If the DPS alr has a 100% damage amp without buffers, it gets even better and the damage amp becomes almost 2.5x damage buff.

     A DPS with 100% damage amp alr goes from a 150k skill to a 298.5k skill with Bronya + RM.
     A DPS with 100% damage amp alr goes from doing a 150k skill to a 358.9k skill with Bronya + RM.

     That’s a pretty nice difference.

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     • Second DPS example was meant to say Bronya + Jiaoqiu. Oop.

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     • Part of it is that people have seen leaks of his kit being busted and many are disappointed in the difference.

       The other part is that, at E0S0, he’s just not appreciably better than Pela outside of Acheron teams. For Acheron teams? He should be VERY good, no doubt.

       Pela’s defense shred is a similar multiplier to vulnerability in that they’re multiplicative with dmg%, etc., except it gets larger if you have more defense shred from other sources, like the prisoner or quantum sets. It also does depend on what level the enemies are, unlike vulnerability which is always flat.

       So Pela’s damage buffing with S5 Sweat LC (E0/E4+) with no other sources of def shred is:
       MoC (level 95): 42.7%/44.9%
       PF (level 85): 40.2%/42.2%
       AS (level 90): 41.5%/43.6%

       E0S0 Jiaoqiu is a flat 40%, 55% for ultimates specifically. If you run him with S5 Sweat (assuming a direct comparison to Pela here, where you would switch them out):
       MoC: 53%
       PF: 52.5%
       AS: 52.8%

       E1 is a massive boost, using PF he goes from 52.5% to a whopping 104.7%. S1 takes him to a 64% increase.

       Would you pull for an E0S0 Jiaoqiu for a 7.4% damage increase in Pure Fiction over using a E6 Pela with the same 4* light cone? The calculations are way different for Acheron, and he’s a worthy pull if you can spare pulls to dedicate him to her team or if you can afford to get E1 and/or S1. But for everyone who can’t or was hoping he’d be more universal, it sucks.

       Bad? Not by a long shot for sure, especially if you want to buff your Acheron to insane levels. But he’s not the Pela upgrade people thought he would be.

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       • That’s not how defense shred works. Defense shred is very weak at the beginning. Pela’s 40% Def shred is only like a 20% damage buff on it’s own. It’s after being put together with lots of other sources that it becomes huge. Which is likely why Jiaoqiu was removed from the defense shred debuff group. As him and pela together would be able to reach that all important 100% defense shred. The only time 40% defense shred is a full >40% damage buff, is when you reach 100% defense shred overall.

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         • That’s what my numbers show. I’m just running Pela with S5 sweat (which is highly recommended afaik), which buffs the numbers since she gives 58% total def shred instead of 42%. If there’s a mistake somewhere, please let me know because as far as I know these are the right formulas I’m using.

           No def shred: 0.465 multi
           E4+ Pela: 42% def shred = ~.6 multi, or 0.6/.465 = 28.9% dmg increase
           With Sweat S5: 58% def shred = .664 multi, or 0.664/.465 = 42.79% dmg increase

           Relatively, Pela gets ~13.9% dmg increase from the LC.
           Jiaoqiu with it gets a 0.508 multi from the 16% shred, or 0.508/.465 = 9.3% increase

           But since Jiaoqiu’s 40% is multiplicative with the def shred you get a total of 53% for regular damage and 69.4% for ultimate dmg at E0 with S5 sweat LC.

           None of this counts his stack generation for Acheron, which puts him MUCH much higher for her specifically. The issue is that once you talk about any non-Acheron dps, he becomes much harder to recommend at E0S0.

         • I agree, for E0/S0 he is hard to recommend for none Acheron users. He screams high commitment to get the most out of. At E2/S1 he pretty much becomes the best pure Nahility amp in the game but it’s difficult to recommend as the f2p player base stick to E0/S0 for supports. Though i would at the very least recommend his S1 as it’s basically a 50% buff to his damage amp.

           Also his talent only gives 35% damage buff, not 40%. It’s 15% for the first stack and 5% each for the other 4 stacks for a total of 5 stacks for 35% or 50% ult damage buff including ult. But yea, overall at E0/S0 he’s only really good for Acheron. He can still work for DoT teams, but he’s not much of a change from Pela if you use Black Swan.

           As for Pela and the defense shred, those numbers seem a bit off to me. Esp because you have 16% def shred boosting your damage amp by 14%. I’m pretty sure def shred only gains that much efficiency at higher levels like around 75/80%. But i could be wrong. I’ve heard Pela’s damage amp is like 36%/38%. But then again that could not be counting the LC and instead counting the ice res pen. Idk but that’s what i went with on my own comparrison calcs.

         • I looked at a few different sources (KQM and Fandom, double checked with some random person’s calculations on a reddit page that showed up in the search results too) and the formula looks to be Char level + 20 over the sum of Char level + 20 and Enemy level + 20. This means that at 100% shred, a lvl 95 MoC enemy has a 1/(100/215) = 115% damage increase.

           It’s different from the equation I was using, but gives the same numbers as the one I was using, checked at every def shred value.

           I DID make a mistake though in my first post, Pela’s increase from the LC is NOT 42.8-28.9 = 13.9%, it’s 144.97%/128.97% = 12.4%, which matches with the roughly 0.73% dmg increase per 1% additional def shred that you get around 40-50% def shred. (Reference: average value would be about 0.73%, which gives roughly 1.0074^16 = 12.34%).

           The formula starts giving over 1% dmg amp per 1% def shred at about 86/87%, while starting at 0.53%.

       • From my calcs.

         E2 Acheron.
         Bronya + Pela = 238% damage boost. 2 Ults 1 Cycle.
         Bronya + Jiaoqiu = 351%. 3 Ults 1 Cycle

         Yeeaaaa… i’m thinking he’s worth it.

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2. its time for more bad takes woo!!!

   —————————————————

   TL;DR: jiaoqiu is a 5* guinaifen who overtakes her for general purpose yet is eclipsed by her in the DOT team niche, leading to the only compelling reason for pulling him over any other units being that acheron teams receive a noticeable benefit with vuln; his debuffs are comparable to sw and pela, however those two units arent in very high demand from the perspective of general supportive damage amplifiers like ruan mei, robin and sparkle

   WOULD NOT RECOMMEND PULLING UNLESS YOU HAVE ACHERON

   —————————————————

   look, im not mad about his healing being removed, or his dmg amp being changed to vuln, or any of that. the thing im most disappointed with is that HE FEELS TOO SIMILAR TO GUINAIFEN which limits diversity in a game that, for some people, can feel very monotonous and tedious to get through.

   i will applaud how they managed to make jiaoqiu’s playstyle feel diff to guinaifen’s; he cares a lot more about his ult, which leads to energy management being far more important compared to gui who only remembers she has an ult every so often.

   i also understand them not buffing the vuln; 50% is a nice number.
   no but seriously, i think he couldve benefitted from a slight vuln increase, 60? 65? smth like that

   with that said, my issues start with his sp negativity; he desperately wants to be able to 3T ult, yet to do so reliably he needs to skill twice and basic once. this limits his placement in many teams and hurts his overall versatility.

   its also starting to get a little noticeable that ehr is a stat that only can really benefit beyond hitting debuffs reliably through trace conversions; ehr and debuffs in general really feel annoying due to how “hit and get full benefits or miss and get none” they feel.

   im not really gonna get into how id change the ehr stat overall due to length but smth along the lines of making all debuffs hit by default and having ehr increase their effectiveness would be cool

   my biggest gripe, however, BY FAR is how they removed his enemy effect hit rate reduction.

   ————————————————

   this may be a little hard to follow, but it shouldnt be too hard if you’ve ever passed like year 9 or smth

   in hsr, the debuff formula is as follows:

   Probability of landing debuff = Base Chance*(1 + Effect Hit Rate)*(1 – Effect Res)*(1 – Specific Debuff Res)

   every enemy has 36% EHR at level 95, and for our purposes our Specific Debuff Res will be 0%.
   if we let Probability of landing debuff = P(x), and let Effect Res = x, our formula now looks like this:

   P(x) = Base Chance*1.36*(1 – x)

   and this formula looks very VERY similar to graphs in the form: y = mx + b.

   let’s plot a few graphs, like on desmos which you can pull up in like 2 seconds.

   we’re going to write:

   y = 1*1.36*(1-x), to represent the chance an enemy lands a debuff with 100% base chance (e.g. all of Present Inebriated in Revelry’s attacks, the anti-clara DoT elite)

   y = 1.3*1.36*(1-x), to represent the chance an enemy lands a debuff with 130% base chance (e.g. kafka’s Spirit Whisper)

   y = 1*1.06*(1-x), to represent the chance an enemy lands a debuff with 100% base chance and is affected by pre-v3 jiaoqiu

   y = 1.3*1.06*(1-x), to represent the chance an enemy lands a debuff with 130% base chance and is affected by pre-v3 jiaoqiu

   now you can see how massive of a difference pre-v3 jiaoqiu made for allowing allies with lower effect res to dodge enemy debuffs; while some may just argue “build more effect res!” this obviously isn’t always feasible, so something like this would help.

   but most importantly, THIS IS SO FREAKING COOL. hsr has NEVER affected the GRADIENT of the debuff formula, they have only EVER touched Specific Debuff Res (cc res, dot res, etc.) or increased Effect Res. this wouldve made jiaoqiu stand out SO MUCH MORE and…
   they removed his trace to make it so he could ult on the first turn.

   now this isnt necessarily a bad thing, it makes jiaoqiu able to give his full benefits pretty much immediately, which is crucial for acheron teams where she can pretty much ult on the team’s first rotation. however, it’s painful to see such a COOL way of affecting enemy debuff res be replaced with something honestly more boring.

   ————————————————

   in conclusion, like most ppl, i am pretty disappointed with the way hoyo handled him throughout the beta and he had so much potential to be a really interesting unit like sword march 7th

   IM SO SORRY ITS SO LONG AND I KNOW LIKE 99% OF PPL DONT EVEN BOTHER READING THIS

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   • Not as long as the Firefly comment, get better
     Also Aventurine’s old kit had an EHR debuff too but it got removed, HyV just seems to be allergic to that one

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     • oh i actually didnt know that; i mean i was there for aventurine beta but there were more pressing matters at hand (acheron) so i didnt rlly pay attention?

       that said, imo it hurts a lot more for jiaoqiu considering that his kit as it is now is so similar to gui that having the ehr debuff would go a long way to making him feel more unique as a character

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   • We always have to have at least 1 super long post! This just means we’ve met our quota.

     Enemy effect hit rate was interesting to see them add to his base kit before they took it away. It’ll probably come back later as part of a future Nihility/Preservation kit, but yeah this is why I’m trying to distance myself from leaks. It’s much more disappointing seeing *what could have been* and comparing it to what we get. It’s not a healthy mindset, but hard to avoid when you see parts of a kit removed or nerfed.

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3. Well, they’ve double-downed on these changes! Guess that means turkey is back on the menu (Sunday do not dissapoint)

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4. v4 changes:

   E1
   – DMG increase now applies to all DoTs (previously excluded DoTs during enemy turns).
   – DMG reduced from 48% to 40%
   – Relevant rewording: “Increases the DMG dealt to an enemy target afflicted with Ashen Roast by 40%.”

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5. did they finally make dot jiaoqiu’s default kit?? LETS GO!!!

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6. Jiaoqiu can go and suck on a chilli pepper with his nerfed mid Kit!

   Dreams tell me Feixiao will be as powerful as Acheron.
   Much reather get that hot Foxian lady instead of this Mid-chef.

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   • so true

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7. Well unless there’s some serious reworks it looks like I’m 1 fox down 😔
   luckily Tingyun will make up for the missing tail with 3 more
   Feixiao and Tingyun’s designs look nice (assuming the model leak wasn’t just a very high quality fake) so it looks like I’m going to skip Jiaoqiu

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8. is this his final kit?
   or should i expect they buff him more?

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   • I pray they rework him for V4, I miss the original kit instead of just another debuffer

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   • Yes. v4 is just another rewording patch.

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9. Can someone let me know if i’m wrong about anything here. I’ve only just looked him up so i could be wrong about a few things here.

   So Jiaoqiu at base gives 35% debuff damage boost and 50% for ultimate’s with his ult active which has easy 100% up time.

   With his LC this can go to 59% and 74% for ultimate’s. Then with E1 he adds 48% buff damage boost which stacks multiplicatively with the debuff damage boost he has

   With a speed 2/4 and speed boosts he gets to 134 speed with no sub stats at all so you don’t need to focus on anything else but effect hit rate and attack %.

   With 180% effect hit rate which will require 50% in sub stats if you get effect hit rate top, effect hit rate planer set, he gets 265% attack boost from the trace + 2/2 planer set. Which gives him basically 4800 attack without any attack % investment. Which can easily go to 5k Atk or more if you get some atk % investment as well.

   At 5k Atk investment his base DoT becomes around 9 to 10k depending if the enemy is weak to fire or not with no other buffs than his own. But can go way above that in a real DoT team, then with E2 he becomes possibly the most powerful DoTer in the game number wise per DoT. (Able to get up above 60k.)

   With all that said.
   E0/S0 – Not worth if you don’t run Acheron and even then it’s rly tight other than for PF.
   E1 or S1 – Best in slot for Acheron most of the time.
   E1/S1 – Best in slot for Acheron easily at this point and rly good for DoT teams.
   E2/S1 – Best in slot for DoT teams easily at this point. This with Kafka and Black Swan would dominate every aspect of this game. Making Kafka hit as hard as as hyper buffed Jingliu + all the DoT shit on the opps turn on top of it. Would honestly be the best team in the game with E2 Kafka and E2 Black Swan on top of it. But that’s a LOT of investment for a single team. Not rly worth going for if you use him with Acheron tho as it adds pretty much nothing with her.

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   • Nah, he gains 240% attack at 140% EHR and it’s the cap.

     By the way, Jiaoqiu’s attack is something like Boothill’s crit values, simply useless.

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     • Oh i know, but the 2/2 effect hit rate planar can give 25% more. Thus i said 265% with both.

       The attack is what his DoT is based off of right? So idk how it’s useless?

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       • In HSR, every DPS suck without supports and the damage from supports is simply neglectible unless you arbitrarily drop your primary DPS and use a support as the primary DPS for the team. When your Seele can deal 160k damage per skill and 300k damage per ultimate, why do you bother to put your eyes on Silver Wolf’s and Fu Xuan’s damage?

         And in Jiaoqiu’s case it is even worse. Acheron is a mighty powerhouse and usually finishes the wave with one or two casts of her ultimate. Even if the enemies had any remaining HP, she can swiftly destroy them using skills, which does considerable damage as well, and charges her ultimate for the next wave. Jiaoqiu’s damage in this case is just like Pela’s damage, in theory the higher the better, in practise simply neglectible. I’m not saying Jiaoqiu is useless in the comp. Jiaoqiu converts every action of himself and the enemies into Acheron’s energy and nobody else can do the same. Just his DoT is useless in this comp.

         As the 3rd member of the Dot comp, Jiaoqiu doesn’t outperform Ruan Mei, Robin, and not even Guinaifen. Ruan Mei has higher supporting power and her talent quickens the frequency at which the enemies take DoT when they are weakness broken. Robin has much higher supporting power and periodically allows extra turns for the whole comp. Guinaifen’s talent stacks acceptably fast thanks to Kafka and her ultimate has DoTonation, allowing her to force proc Black Swan’s Arcana. KaBSGui has always had higher damage per round than KaBSRuan, but the difference is small meaning it hasn’t been worth it to build Gui for the purpose. What does Jiaoqiu has in his kit? 180% attack multiplier DoT, relatively low supporting power, and no DoTonation.

         This is why I’m regarding Jiaoqiu’s attack as a useless stat. You can’t really expect his damage given he has such a low attack multiplier, even if he had 5k if not 4k attack in battle.

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         • Totally guilty of building a sub DPS SW to help my teams damage. She does nice damage at least.

         • Silver Wolf only has the opportunity to build crits after E2 and that’s out of practise. With the budgets to get E2 just do WTF you want.

         • Also do not forget Silver Wolf has higher attack multiplier than Jiaoqiu and crits, dispite still lower than an ordinary crit DPS. Jiaoqiu does not crit at all. It’s simply unrewarding to pursue any damage on Jiaoqiu.

         • Silver Wolf’s base attack stat with signature is 1222.

           Genius 4pc + Salsotto 2pc, crit rate body, speed boots, attack rope, and quantum damage orb. Despite I still recommend ERR rope I’m assuming attack rope because E1 SW can somehow able to ultimate every 3 turns with skill + ba + ba, assuming when the ultimate hits the enemy there are 5 or more debuffs on it.

           Attack: 1222 * (1 + 0.28 + 0.432) + 352.8 = 2444.864
           Speed: 107 + 25 + 2.3 * 8 = 150.4
           Crit rate: 5 + 32.4 + 8 + 12 + 2.92 * 7 = 77.84
           Crit damage: 50 + 5.83 * 15 = 137.45
           Damage amp: 8 + 10 + 38.8 = 56.8
           Damage amp for ultimate: 56.8 + 15 = 71.8
           Def pen: 45 + 8 + 20 = 73
           Res pen: 33 vs. non-Quantum weak, 13 vs. Quantum weak
           Vulnerability: 12
           Total substats rolls: 8 on speed, 7 on crit rate, and 15 on crit damage.

           Skill damage:
           2445 * 1.96 * (1 + 0.7784 * 1.3745) * 1.568 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 15020

           Ultimate damage:
           2445 * 3.8 * (1 + 0.7784 * 1.3745) * 1.718 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 31907

           I don’t call that 15k / 30k damage vs. single target “nice damage”.

           ———-

           When we add FX at E1S1 into the team, who gives +12% crit rate, +30% crit damage from E1, +10% crit damage from broken keel set, and +9 damage amp:

           Skill damage:
           2445 * 1.96 * (1 + 0.8984 * 1.7745) * 1.658 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 19906

           Ultimate damage:
           2445 * 3.8 * (1 + 0.8984 * 1.7745) * 1.808 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 42084

           ———-

           When we add Sparkle at E2S1 into the team, who gives +10% crit rate, +28% crit damage from signature, +10% crit damage from broken keel set, +48% damage amp from ultimate and talent, +45% attack from major trace, +40% attack from E1, and +24% def pen from E2:

           Skill damage:
           3483 * 1.96 * (1 + 0.9984 * 2.1545) * 2.138 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73 – 0.24))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 56265

           Ultimate damage:
           3483 * 3.8 * (1 + 0.9984 * 2.1545) * 2.288 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73 – 0.24))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 116738

           And finally the ultimate damage is high enough to have it takes one fewer swipe for Seele to finish the elite enemy.

           What you would cast Sparkle’s skill on Silver Wolf? In this case we assume Sparkle gives an additional +100% crit damage.

           Skill damage:
           3483 * 1.96 * (1 + 0.9984 * 3.1545) * 2.138 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73 – 0.24))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 74092

           Ultimate damage:
           3483 * 3.8 * (1 + 0.9984 * 3.1545) * 2.288 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150 * (1 – 0.73 – 0.24))) * 1.13 * 1.12 ≈ 153726

           ———-

           To be honest, at this level of investment, just do whatever you want. This is what you get for building damage on someone that isn’t meant to be a damage dealer.

           And in Jiaoqiu’s case it is even worse. He has only 180% attack multipler and his DoT does not crit.

         • In this case I call that “arbitrarily dropped your primary DPS and use a support as the primary DPS for the team”.

         • I run mono quantum with them yes. And sometimes yes i will Sparkle SW if i intend to ult while Seele’s ult is still a good bit off.

           My SW hits 25k skills unbuffed and 70k with passive buffs and then over 80k when buffed by Sparkle skill.

         • The reason i built SW to do some damage is to mitigate the weakness of Hunt chars. SW + Seele skill is strong enough to kill relatively bulky mobs along Seele to get Resurgence on mobs like the TV enemies whicyh are normally too bulky to ever oneshot and get Resurgence.

         • As for Jiaoqiu. Acheron is kinda messy at times in PF. Sometimes she can skill and enemies will just survive, making it so you have to either wait an entire turn to kill the enemy or use your ult on close to already dead enemies. 10k damage may not seem like a lot, but in certain circumstances it could save you an entire turn. If it allows you to more easily finish off enemies or make it so you don’t have too. Imo that’s annoying. When you run solo DPS teams, anyone who can buff you while also dealing some level of damage is very welcome. All extra damage is rly, is another buff.

         • I agree with your calcs on Jiaoqiu, but I want to add something about sub-DPS styled characters like SW/Jiaoqiu.

           It’s not *always* about needing 1 fewer skill/ultimate to kill an enemy, sometimes all you need to save 1 DPS turn is a few percent damage from the rest of the team. If two skills = 90% of the enemy’s HP, the rest of your team just needs to provide that last 10% in the same time frame, not DPS levels of dmg per turn. And that’s much more doable compared to trying to hit 100k+ on SW ult or 10k+ on Jiaoqiu DoT.

           But RIP Jiaoqiu DoT, slightly less than Guinaifen’s at 2??? stacks of her firekiss? Not even 3 or 4 stacks… I guess it’s still a premium thing for him.

   • Jiaoqiu’s DoT damage per popup at 4k attack, fire damage orb, and the ashen roast is fully stacked:
     4000 * 1.8 * 1.532 * 1.35 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 6926

     Plus 1k attack:
     5000 * 1.8 * 1.532 * 1.35 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 8657

     /w Jiaoqiu’s signature:
     5000 * 1.8 * 1.532 * 1.59 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 10196

     /w Jiaoqiu’s E2:
     5000 * 4.8 * 1.532 * 1.59 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 27191

     ———-

     Guinaifen’s DoT damage per popup at 3k attack, fire damage orb, and the vulnerability stacked twice:

     3000 * 2.4 * 2.012 * 1.152 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 7762

     Plus E2 is active:
     3000 * 2.8 * 2.012 * 1.152 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 9055

     /w Jiaoqiu’s signature:
     3000 * 2.8 * 2.012 * 1.392 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 10942

     /w S5 GNASW:
     3000 * 2.8 * 2.732 * 1.152 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 12296

     ———-

     Not to mention that Gui has DoTonation in her ultimate and she may force proc Black Swan’s Arcana when Black Swan’s ultimate is active, while Jiaoqiu can’t do the same no matter how many eidolons you get for him.

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     • The calculations above, did not count the relic sets. Also, Guinaifen’s vulnerability stacks relatively quick in the DoT comp.

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     • The calculations above, assumed the enemies to have innate fire weakness, thus zero fire resistance.

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     • Guinaifen’s not rly getting to 3k Atk tho mines got like 2200. Jiaoqiu however can get to 6k if you rly try thanks to that Trace.

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       • I should say how he gets to 6k Atk. If you give him Atk% Boots and Atk% Rope. He can still maintain 100% up time with his ult if he gets hit a bit and you don’t really need him to be fast anyways. Acheron just likes him being a bit faster, but if you’re going with DoT instead with Kafka and BS, then going Atk boots is fine Imo. With those two Atk % pieces, just around 30% more along with the DoT 4/4 set will get him to around 6k Atk. It should not be too hard considering you’re only rly building 2 stats with him.

         Also my Guinaifen has 2.4k Atk not 2.2k. But still a good bit away from 3k.

         What is the calc with these Atk stats?

         Then add BS/Kafka/Huohuo buffs if you can? Or not, up to you.

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         • Nah, you really need ERR rope.

           /wo ERR rope: Jiaoqiu can NOT fully charge his ultimate even with skill, skill, and skill.

           5 + 30 + 30 + 30 = 95

           /w ERR rope: Jiaoqiu can fully charge his ultimate with skill, skill, and basic attack.

           (5 + 30 + 30 + 20) * 1.194 = 101.49

           /wo ERR rope, /w Huohuo: Jiaoqiu can fully charge his ultimate with skill, skill, and basic attack.

           5 + 30 + 20 + 20 + 100 * 0.2 = 95

           5 + 30 + 30 + 20 + 100 * 0.2 = 105

           /w ERR rope, Huohuo: Jiaoqiu can fully charge his ultimate with skill, basic attack, and basic attack.

           (5 + 30 + 20 + 20) * 1.194 + 100 * 0.2 = 109.55

           It is never worth it to trade the ERR rope for some damage, especially when the attack multipler is 180%.

         • At 6k attack:
           6000 * 1.8 * 1.532 * 1.35 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 10389

           /w Jiaoqiu’s signature:
           6000 * 1.8 * 1.532 * 1.59 * (1000 / (1000 + 1150)) ≈ 12236

           I don’t think it is really worth it to build Jiaoqiu’s attack to that high. It should have been more rewarding than getting more attack on Black Swan.

       • Actually, not even close to 30% sub stats.

         Base Atk is 1184 pretty much. 240% + 25% + 12% + 43.3% + 43.2% = 363.4% Atk boost. 1184 x 4.634 + 353 base Atk from Gloves = 5840 Atk with 0 Atk sub stats. So just 14% Atk boost from subs would be enough to get you to over 6k Atk. It’s very easy to get over 6k on him.

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         • Attack orb is worse than fire damage orb in the damage culculation. Jiaoqiu needs ERR rope, speed boots, and EHR body for obvious reasons.

   • Guinaifen attack calculation

     Gui’s base attack stat /w GNASW is 1058, /w Jiaoqiu’s signature is 1164.

     The relics are:
     Prisoner set 4pc and glamoth set 2pc. Speed boots, attack rope, attack body, and fire damage orb.

     1058 * (1 + 0.24 + 0.432 * 2) + 352.8 = 2578.832

     /w 8 substats rolls on atk%:
     1058 * (1 + 0.24 + 0.432 * 2 + 0.0432 * 8) + 352.8 = 2944.4768

     /w Jiaoqiu’s signature:
     1164 * (1 + 0.24 + 0.432 * 2) + 352.8 = 2801.856

     /w Jiaoqiu’s signature & 8 substats rolls on atk%:
     1164 * (1 + 0.24 + 0.432 * 2 + 0.0432 * 8) + 352.8 = 3204.1344

     If your Gui has ~2200 attack I assume you’re using ERR rope on her or you didn’t fully level her and her light cone. However Gui at 3k attack is feasible, at least as feasible as Jiaoqiu at 5k attack, I guess.

     I’m not arguing Gui is better than Jiaoqiu, that’s not my point. My point is Jiaoqiu is no better than Gui in the DoT comp unless you get eidolons on him. If you have no such plan to do so, you rather stay with Gui.

     No no no this is not the case of Sampo vs. Black Swan. Black Swan is no better than Sampo vs. single target, that’s truth, but the comparason is extremely unfair, because Sampo bas bounce type skill meaning good against single target while Black Swan’s blast damage is a wasted potential, and more importantly single target scenario is rare to begin with.

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     • In other words, despite adding the DoT to his base kit, he’s a serviceable but not amazing choice for DoT.

       So they’re really focusing him to be the Acheron buffer and stack generator, huh? That’s a little disappointing.

       Either way, appreciate the calcs as always!

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10. Feel sad on what happened to him. On the baseline hes tailor made for acheron, but as you get to his E2 you kinda want to use him on DoT team and replace guinaifen (for the sake of argument lets assume ruan mei & robin doesnt exist). I wish they would just revert him back to V2 version and IMO replace his E2 with more vulnerability and def ignore on ult dmg

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